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Contents
Note: This is a only supplement to a full report of the "Journalist in Cyberspace" Conference. (It is notes from the second of the two days, including a transcript of the final panel.) If this is the only document you have, you should also read, print out, or link to some additional material. If you are connected to the Internet at this moment, you can simply click on the addresses indicated. If you are reading this in hard copy, the Web locations you need are printed here.
They are: (1) the main page,
for an overview, list of organizers, and other information,
(2) the Introductory Note
for the conventions involved in this report, and the conditions on its use, and
(3) Appendix of names and addresses
in order to identify the persons referred to below only by initials.
(4) Photographs of the Conference
are also available.
-- Nicholas Johnson
0903
Tom Delaney. Different levels. View from above yesterday. Last evening in details of operating on the Internet. Maybe Ed Fouhy will strike middle ground. Now with Pew. Formerly with CBS in Saigon. ABC News VP, Washington Bureau Chief. School of Foreign Service. Harvard. Current project, to reconnect citizens with communities.
0910
Ed Fouhy. Pope came to Washington, went fishing with President Clinton in Potomac. Fish biting. Ran out of bait. Clinton walked on water to get more bait. Pope impressed. Clinton, "I do it all the time." Near the end of day. Press pool waiting at edge of river. Pope left to answer questions. Said, "President most remarkable, can walk on water." Journalists noted it, "OK, walked on water." Next day headline: "Clinton Can't Swim."
[0913] Civic journalism. Journalism and democracy. Tour of horizon, American media, and crisis that it faces in terms of diminishing audience. Journalistic application of the Internet. Available to you as well as us.
Civic journalism a different way of thinking about the news. A conviction that citizens have a say in the journalism of the day. An agenda-setting role in journalists, but also responsibility of citizens. Churchill: democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. Have to continue to work on democracy every day.
The majority of American workers today work with information technology. Went into factory recently for story. Blue collar workers run computers, not machines.
The work place is now decentralized. Downsizing. The middle manager, between worker and CEO, mostly managed information. Now that's done by computers.
People now work in teams that cut across the old hierarchial structures. Top-down model is gone, because of information technology. Some journalists haven't grasped that.
Woman who's news director of AOL. In two hours after Paris accident news began to filter through on radio and TV, after midnight, one million AOL users (of 8 million) signed on to get news of the crash. People not satisfied with old news distribution.
ABCNews.com reported two million visitors to its Web site from Friday to Saturday.
Fourth of July, spacecraft landed on Mars, transmitted pictures of Mars to earth. Over 45 million hits in five days; 11 servers had to be diverted to this public purpose from internal NASA purposes.
CNN Web site reported normal traffic jumped 40%.
People can now get news when they want it, in the quantity they want, on the subjects they want.
Media use and patterns in the U.S. [As determined by studies conducted by the Pew Research Center on the People and the Press; Web site: People-Press.org]
Those who watched TV news "yesterday": 1994 74%, 1995 61%, 1996 59%.
Change in Network News Viewing by Age from 1995 to 1996: 18-29 years old, dropped from 36 to 22%, 30-49 years stayed 42 to 42%, 50+ years, stayed 62 to 62%.
Why not watching? Answers: Too busy 18-29 64%, 30-49 50%, 50+ 21%. No interest 9%, 12%, 15%; "Get from other source," 5%, 10%, 15%.
Other Media Use Yesterday. Entertainment TV, book, magazine. Use of PC 3+ days per week: 54, 46, and 41% for 18-29 year-olds, 30-49, 50+. Half have home computers, but only half of them have modems.
How do you use the home computer? 72% say to get news, weather or sports information. What we in the old media have been selling all these years.
Generation ago 60% of 18-29 read paper, today less than 30%. 1968 was 60%, 1996 was 28%.
"Who do you think gets the facts straight?" Straight, TV 50%, Newspapers 49%; Wrong 42%, 44%. Only about half the people who read and watch TV think that journalists meet the basic test of journalism: that they get the stories right.
"Press is often inaccurate." 1985 34%, 1997 56%. Don't know if less accurate, or people simply more skeptical. A period during which media has gone "down market" -- more sensational, more tabloid, more yellow.
Press Often Inaccurate (by age). Under 30. 1985 30%, 1997 59%, 50-64 42%, 60%. Youngest viewers most skeptical.
54% think "news organizations get in the way of society solving its problems." Public sees journalists as not contributing very much to society.
Who do you blame for the handling of the Richard Jewell and Dallas Cowboys incidents/stories? Jewell: Media 58%, law enforcement 24%. Dallas Cowboys: Media 67%, Law Enforcement 16%. Stories in both cases probably leaked to the media by friendly law enforcement officers. But when stories turn out to be wrong, public blames media, not law enforcement.
"Clinton Can't Swim." Why do you think badly of the news media? Bias. Emphasis on bad news. Too much opinion. Sensationalism. Truth lies in eye of beholder.
For some, the answer is a different way of looking at the news. "Civic journalism." The citizens' agenda invited into the newsroom. Being tried in a variety of cities: Seattle, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, plus medium and small towns.
Journalist should not only talk down, but listen up.
John Dewey great modern philosopher of democracy. "Press should make public feel connected to community." Another: "As journalists we have a stake in the outcome of democracy."
Civic journalism is not "boosterism," press as cheerleader for economic interests, the Chamber of Commerce. Still in experimental stage. Only four-year trial so far. But interest around the world. Steady stream of foreign journalists visiting Pew and papers trying it; probably because of what they see on the Internet. India, Japan; Argentina, Bolivia; Indonesia, Nigeria.
Journalists can reclaim central role of journalism. Citizens must make decisions for civil society, from neighborhood to country. Our U.S. civic life dysfunctional. We can measure public opinion. It can be manipulated, by political consultants, with focus groups, etc. But public opinion swings widely. May get "safe" answers, e.g., to race questions.
If democracy to have meaning, people must be involved throughout the year, not just for elections. But must have information to do it. Only place to get that information is from journalists.
Market ruthless in rewarding winners and punishing losers. Newspapers and TV monitor subscribers/viewers. But journalism as entertainment is not very competitive with entertainment as entertainment.
Attempt to rebuild the tattered remains of the hold that journalists have traditionally had on the citizens' relation to civic society, ties of trust, bridge the chasm.
Brought examples of what looks like on printed page and in television.
Cyberjournalism. Journalist in California has been lobbying the California legislature, using e-mail to reach officials. Now successful in getting Governor to sign legislation to reveal what candidates spending on election as soon as filed, file on floppy disks, information will be available in timely fashion.
0954
JH: What talking about requires feedback and communication. Can it happen through old media or require new?
EF: Think it can be done with old media. Different techniques. Des Moines Register requires everyone on the staff to talk to five persons every week whom they would not normally talk to. Manhattan, Kansas, reporters go to community organizations to listen. TV station in Dallas, every reporter, producer, required to go to one community meeting a week. No longer prohibition on joining organizations.
HM: Horrible numbers. Do you report them, discuss them, within media? Do you talk about German public radio? Talk about reasons, and offer solutions. Credibility so low that danger to democracy.
EF: We journalists should think about the news in a different way.
NJ: To what extent is this just another form of "dumbing down," asking the uninformed what the issues are?
EF: Editors still must exercise judgment. People experts on their own lives. Experts are often wrong; and not expert on great trends. Four great issues in U.S. now, education, crime, jobs and economy, values. Everyone is an expert to some degree on values; your values as good as mine.
1001
TD: Short five minute break? No coffee will make break even shorter.
1015
Matthias Klause. Take new direction. Stanislaw Je,drzejewski to Chair. Elizbieta Kindler-Jaworska to speak first. Comes from technical side; technical problems of regulating media. Peter Schiwy, German writing journalist, responsible for privatization of East German film. NJ, former U.S. FCC, practical experience with attempts to regulate.
SJ: Technologies have had an impact on freedoms, freedom of expression and right to information. New communication and IT require that we revisit some of the definitions of freedom. Access to information. Freedom of information. Promotion of values, such as freedom and democracy.
New IT can restrict access unless measures are taken to harmonize the technical standards. If don't have level playing field will be hampered. Council of Europe, resolutions devoted to these issues. European Council of Ministers could pass resolutions about the impact of new technologies on democracy and human rights. Can also build bridges within democracy. Can have negative impact in broad sense. Offer better access to information; "electronic democracy."
Copyright protection far more difficult on both sides of the ocean. Rights of consumers not always observed.
Want to focus on the following topics: access to the network and new services, by operators, by users. Access to transmitting digital services. Suggest we home in on regulations involving universal service, and access to educational services. Production end; production of information, matter of licensing, what kind of responsibility, sanctions, for violations. Copyright, privacy of personal data. Libel, pornography. Dissemination of information. Regulations involving the anonymity of correspondence. Access to official information. Procedure for filing complaints. Public procedure for lodging complaints about information disseminated by new media. Should the new technologies be subjected to regulation in a world of less and less regulation? If so, same regulations, or deregulation, or self regulation? What do these words mean.
1027
EK-J: Engineer by profession, specializing in electronics. Have been examining new technologies and their regulation.
Experience so far, comments of others, conclude that existing regulations cannot be imposed on new technologies. Some regulation needed. Countries more advanced are reviewing existing laws and amending old ones. It's what happened in U.S. Communications Act 1934. New law in 1996. Due primarily to new technologies. Path that Poland will also take.
Don't feel expert in law.
What changes have occurred in Poland recently? Deep conviction that Internet a phenomenal opportunity; mass access to a huge market at a very low financial risk. Point of departure. Won't replace the current distribution systems. Sends information requested by user. Complementary, not competitive. TV will use the same media. Uplinks, terrestrial. A plethora of opportunities, compression, broad band. Great opportunities.
Book involving telecommunications in year 2000. A symbol of convergence; convergence of thought. FCC covered the entire communications sector, including newly emerging technologies.
Broadcasting law in Poland 1992, effective 1993. Opened up room for private entities. Before a body supervising only the public system. The National Broadcasting Council created. Division introduced between radio and television. Second objective, creation and regulation of the private segments.
Radio Maria, with 130 FM stations around Poland. Another has 71, another 39. Covering the entirety of Poland. New stations. Polish public television has two channels covering 90% of Poland. TV Polonia for Polish citizens living abroad. Polsat coverage over 80%; have just launched a satellite. Another 30% population, 20% of area. TVN few days ago; covers 30% population, 20% of area. New television will expand, but coverage impressive.
Momentum in new services; digital; but also analog. Channel Five ruled out a plan to expand the analog system. How marry interests of new broadcasters and not impede new digital system? Music program from satellite is digitally transmitted. DVB, she deputy head of that project, stationary television; but when cable developed would think terrestrial digital wouldn't be of interest, but ability to move around seems to be attractive in, say, Belgium. To highlight the fact that the digital systems will further develop. But what happening globally? Digital began with satellites. One million direct TV sets sold in short time. One of biggest impacts on consumer market. Has been monitoring 60 channels on direct TV; pay television; movies from satellite platforms; 7 million subscribers from satellite generate more revenue than from dozen or so million of terrestrial.
1046
SJ: National Broadcasting Council will be the regulatory authority?
EK-J: Part with Council, rest is with national radio agency. In multiplex channels, Internet is considered part of the "other services" group. Department of Industry and Trade. A commercially sensitive problem. Desire to prevent monopoly forming. So a gatekeeping organ.
SJ: Probably the most well known report is "Europe: The Global Information Society," developed within Germany. Proposes single European regulatory body. Has created controversy. Deregulation.
1050
Peter Schiwy. [From German to Polish to English.] Rare occasion; German lawyers usually not helpless or puzzled; however, in Germany have still not solved the problem of how to regulate the Internet.
Regulations from media law covering all the media. No country has as many laws as Germany. Historical reasons as well as from traditional role of state. The reason for it is that both the Red and Brown dictatorships were meddling too much with the media.
Germany is a federation made up of 16 Lander. The founding fathers of constitution who developed the groundwork for the 50-year-long stability of Germany were already back then aware of the role that media can perform. Article 5 in constitution; preceded only by dignity of human being, equality, ban on discrimination, religion, race, sex, political convictions. Those cardinal values, freedom of gathering, integrity of property, dealt with in later articles of constitution.
The German constitutional court has adhered to the spirit of our constitution and tasks of the media, extensive rather than restrictive interpretation. Members of courts have always stood up for freedom of media. In the context, responding to chair's question regarding access, cannot see any barriers to free use of medium in Germany. Freedom of the media is an overriding principle.
In Germany there is some criticism of the media and their favoring of scandal. Princess of Monaco, brilliant person, is now the focus of the media. She has had influence on our media; damages for falsified interview. We are concerned about the abuse of the media by means of the Internet. For example, Minister for the Family, has been trying to silence a radical individual who is trying to reach young Internet users with rightist opinions.
Shows legal difficulties. Dissemination of Nazi propaganda is punishable. Where is the message created? When someone in Canada puts information into the Internet, that appears on the screen in Germany, where is the crime committed? Another example, a publication on the sickness of Mitterand. One of the doctors broke his professional ethics and published a book about the disease of the President. People close to the President managed to keep the book from being marketed. Excerpts were published on the Internet. Can go to an Internet Cafe in Paris and read it.
An issue regarding protection of consumers. Risks of some drugs. Have to include side effects in advertising. Various drugs are advertised on the Internet suggesting remedies unlikely to be effective; literature with it when ordered in foreign language consumer can't read. Issues brought to German government by citizens; requests for protection from such acts.
Skipping over drastic examples like pornography.
"European" problem that some things acceptable within some countries are unacceptable elsewhere. Week ago Saturday, private television broadcast satire about priest; no problem in Germany, might have been in Poland.
Internet as global phenomenon; democratic messages via the Internet. "Democracy" means different things in Europe and China. Perception of woman, their role, Muslims have different view than Europe or U.S.
This shows the chaos we are operating in as lawyers. Advocates of strict regulations say can only be done on a global scale. Will pick it up in our discussion. Copyright and intellectual property rights. Abuse on broadcasting media may intensify. In context of new phenomena, technology has taken the lead; lawyers are trying to catch up. Our efforts to curb developments have been futile.
All in all, I'm an optimist. Wider personal freedom, more and more forms of messages, communications. New media offer new kinds of commercial opportunities and activities.
1119
SJ: Whether something new can be regulated. Wherever most Internet access widest, some beginnings of regulation. New law from 1996. Communications Decency Act. Something is being done.
NJ: [There are no notes regarding the presentation by Nicholas Johnson, and the discussion which followed; his personal participation made simultaneous note-taking impossible. Because, by the time he began the scheduled time for presentations had already expired, he delivered a somewhat informal and lighthearted extemporaneous version of ideas and examples drawn from the advanced text of his remarks. In lieu of notes or transcript, his full, advanced text is available here -- with a click if you are now connected to the Internet, and by copying this address and using it later if you are not:]
Coffee break.
1215
TD: Ruth Mara. Used to be called "librarian." Works in Poland, Ukraine, the Baltics, helping information resource centers attached to embassies. Community is seamless. Ruth to explain what's happening in countries.
1218
Ruth Mara. "Embracing the New Technology." I seldom embrace any technology. Don't want cell phone. Only circumstance, if car breaks down. Other: leaving office late, by time get to pizza place it's ready. Since there are so many here in Poland there must be some uses she is unaware of.
Inspired by EF. Want to hear from you on new technologies and why would, or would not, you adopt them? Not inherently good or bad; utility is in use to us.
Do want to talk about Internet density in Europe. Web site collects registration of new hosts in Europe every month. Site address: ftp.ripe.net Raw data. Calculations based on population size; servers per capita. Means nothing by itself. An indicator of something. From highest to lowest:
Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland . . . Israel, Austria, Germany . . . Belgium, Estonia, Czech, Spain, Italy, Hungary, . . . Latvia, Greece, . . . Poland, Croatia, Russia, Turkey, Georgia, Belarus, Moldova, Albania. Fastest increase over last six months: southern Europe: Greece, Italy, Malta.
Why Scandinavia leading the pack? In Finland there is an Internet host for every 12 people. In Albania there are 2000 per server. Finland is ahead of UK, Germany, Austria. Why is that? What produces these differences between Internet acceptance in various countries?
Finland mandatory Internet instruction in schools. Finland's computers serve as proxy hosts for FSU services. Young people have been given the lead.
First time in Estonia, people in banking and law, computer technology taking hold. Met no one over 25. Head of Estonia tax service is 22 years old. Web site, clearing house for all Estonian media, 30 or 40. All set up by people who probably don't read paper newspapers anymore. www.zzz.ee
Latvian Development Agency. Latvia trying to move quickly. "Like you to meet our systems manager but he is in school now. He is 15 and has held job for three years." Web pages between overseas investors and Latvian businesses. Young allowed to go with instincts, even though don't know where going.
Slovenia has a lot of talented young people and letting them work.
Technophobia. Saul Bellow, one of his novels, character says, "Biggest fear that anyone has -- more than death -- is the fear of looking like a fool." She has been using for 20 years. Three very useful words, "I don't know." Saves a lot of time. Suggest you all adopt that. Be open. Be open to your own ignorance. Call someone under 25.
Team skills. Top-down models look good on paper, but don't work well. Northwest Russia hot now for international donors like Soros. Proposed wide area network for university branches; 8 computers one printer each location; some needed fewer computers and another printer. Top-down proposal didn't recognize differences in needs.
Have you found your organizations resistant to change? Are you resistant? If so why?
Belarus. Regulation is an issue.
Should Poland move up list? How and why? What advantages does Poland have? Beautifully placed. Poland and Ireland; well-designed Web pages; probably reflect high educational levels, graphically pleasing, easy to move around. Doesn't see reporting on technology in the media. Difficult to get information on Poland and the Internet. Not as many articles as from Baltic countries.
Q: Lack of education. Young people not being told that the Internet is their future, the key to a higher standard of living. Should be explained to seven and eight-year-olds. Journalists do use the Internet. But average person does not have much knowledge. Need more meetings; but average person not aware of what is at meeting. Do you have books for kids about the Internet? Would be useful for grammar school to have education about technology. When parents are aware, and wealthy, then their children have access to home PC.
RM: Many Polish Web sites, but virtually nothing for kids. Books; yes, we have books for kids, but they don't seem to need books. Lithuanian woman got computer for six and five-year-olds, took keyboard away, figured all they could handle would be the mouse; after one day the six-year-old wanted the keyboard. Are there computers in schools in Poland?
Q: There are some schools with computers, others not, as a result of poor government policy. Parents and teachers have to take care of that. Need to have information teachers in schools.
There is a project to link all secondary schools to the Internet. Funds donated by computer companies; the Ministry of Education is just ignoring the need.
Ranking of countries by persons per host is very closely related to per capita income. Poland is not well off. There are also high telephone call rates. One hour on Internet per day is 100 z per month. Households cannot bear that additional cost. Some sites for children.
RM: Per capita income is closely correlated. Which comes first, technological development and then increased per capita income, or increase in per capita income and then technological development? Government policy. Telephony rate; phones per capita; 15 per 100 people in Poland. Latvia decided last year to completely re-do phone system; driven by Latvian banking industry. Journalists should cover these issues. Research policy issues and report what you find.
How does Poland compare with Ukraine?
NJ: Journalists in Poland should treat the country's telecommunications policy as one of the top major stories for journalists over the next year, while privatization of TPSA is being considered.
TD: Many persons' concern involves reliability of information on the Internet.
RM: You don't "evaluate information on the Internet" you "evaluate information." In theory there is no difference. Documentation is sloppy on Internet. Make sure you document your Web sites; who you are; street address; last updated date. If using information from Web and can't verify it don't use it.
NJ: Told story of Pierre Salinger relying on Web page for his report of U.S. military missile shooting down U.S. passenger plane as illustration of trouble that even the very best journalists can get into when using on Internet sources.
1304
Lunch
1430
[Note: The final session, scheduled for 1430, was titled "Panel Discussion: Vital Issues." It was introduced by Jane Dobija, chaired by Karol Jakubowicz, and included as participants Ed Fouhy, Hermann Meyn, and Nicholas Johnson. Because it was a very interactive panel, Nicholas Johnson was participating throughout and unable to take notes. An audio tape of poor quality was available, however, and I wish to thank Rita Jansen, of the University of Iowa College of Law, for her heroic first cut efforts at transcription. Such errors as remain are of my own making. The quality of the tape was such that some portions could not be transcribed, other statements were guessed at, errors have undoubtedly been introduced, and I may even have identified the wrong speaker on some occasion. If the participants on this panel would like to, as they say in Congress, "revise and extend their remarks" -- within limits -- they should e-mail me to that effect, indicating precisely what it is they wish to have omitted, revised, or added. Corrections, or other suggestions, from others are, of course, also invited. -- Nicholas Johnson, October 22, 1997. Click here to e-mail to me: 1035393@mcimail.com]
Jane Dobija: We are now in a group of the most lasting members of our journey that we have taken that began yesterday morning with the description of an incredible world of technology and responsibilities that most of us, here in Poland at least, have trouble imagining. We then came through a tunnel that took us closer back there on the planet, and began to deal with many of the barriers that stand between us as the technology itself and the goals to which that technology is supposed to lead us.
Along the way we touched on problems, but only touched on them, and many of them have been left not completely discussed, not completely closed. I doubt that we can achieve that goal in the next hour or so that is left us. But I do think that perhaps our experts, who are now our old friends and mentors can perhaps help us get a little bit closer to that final goal and we can carry on by ourselves after these experts take us through the next stage of our journey.
Karol Jakubowicz will be the chair of this discussion.
I apologize that we do not have a Polish representative, Jan Dworak, the head of the Independent Film Producers Association, was supposed to be with us; he came by mistake yesterday already with a severe case of the flu and he warned me that he might not be able to stand up to that again today in order to join us. And so I think we have to understand that he was not able to make it.
We do have Ed Fouhy, with the Pew Civic Journalism Project, Nicholas Johnson, professor of law at the university, and Hermann Meyn, Chairman of the German Journalists Association.
Karol, I'll turn it over to you.
Karol Jakubowicz: Thank you. A moment ago I was asked by one of the panelists, "What's the weather like outside?" This is what Cyberspace does to you; you don't know what the weather is like and you should consider whether this tradeoff is something that is worthwhile. At any rate, to start this off maybe the panelists could very briefly tell us what uses of the new technology, if any, they use in their everyday life, in their everyday work, just go through the list.
Ed Fouhy: I use the Internet, fax and I'm not sure whether or not we still we believe that telephones are news media or not, but I use the telephone most of all. And I think there's a lesson in that: that old media has to die hard.
Nicholas Johnson: I try to make a distinction in my life between what I call my toys and my tools. With regard to toys I try to play with everything, hopefully without having to buy it first; not believing in theft, that requires loans from others, or trying things in stores, and occasionally buying things if they're not too expensive. Because I want to see how everything in this world works.
That goes back in part to the time when I hosted a network television show called "New Tech Times" about new consumer electronics back in the early 1980's. It was too early for such a television show to be truly successful, but it did last for two seasons. And I wrote a nationally syndicated column called "Communications Watch" about the same time. And so by that means I could justify taking time to play with electronic toys.
But in terms of tools, if you've noticed the notebook computer that I use is probably three or four generations old. It does the job perfectly adequately, and if it gets stolen I haven't lost anything of value.
I don't want a cellular phone. I have of course played with one, but I don't wish to carry one. Because in my life I want my messages on my answering machine where I can handle them at the time I want to handle them.
I primarily rely on e-mail -- which I prefer to either faxes or voice phone or the other means of communications.
I try to make that distinction, also in talking to audiences or corporations or whatever, that just because something can be done electronically does not necessarily mean that it's useful.
Hermann Meyn: Ladies and gentlemen, and colleagues, I'd like to confess I do not use a computer. I'm a journalist in Germany and I gain money as a journalist without using a computer.
I started in journalist work 50 years ago. I have a typewriter, and I write with a typewriter my article. And I work for a radio station and I write my manuscript with my typewriter. I go to the studio and I read this article as I did 20 years before. There is no change in my work as journalist.
I earn enough money with these tools. I have a wife who is also a journalist. She is much more modern. She works with a computer and there is a hot competition between her and me. But I earn with my old tools more money than she earns with the new tools.
KJ: What about your news gathering; do you use any new technology to obtain news?
I use newspapers; that's my work. I don't need the Internet; I don't need the Library of Congress. I use the phone.
EF: One of the best uses of the Internet, it seems to me, for news gathering -- other than the obvious, which is to background oneself before going out on an interview by downloading the biography of the person one's about to interview and by getting the home page or whatever -- is, in large news organizations, to put out an e-mail on everyone's computer and "anyone who knows anything about Poland please send me an e-mail because I'm going there next week." And this is done very commonly in large news organizations, and turns the newsroom from a group of highly individualistic people, which journalists tend to be, into members of a journalism team that I think is far more effective than one person working alone.
KJ: That would be my next question; what are the advantages and disadvantages of using the new technology for you personally?
EF: The disadvantage is you don't know that it's raining outside, and that one can tend to have a pixel view of the of the world. By a pixel view I mean one can become so fascinated by the green light of the computer screen that one could forget one is dealing with human beings and human emotions. I think, as with so many things in life, as those of us who have reached middle aged have learned, moderation tends to make that truth a little closer to the reality of everyday life. We can of course use it as a tool, as we use a hammer to drive a nail, and still have a life beyond that.
NJ: There are a couple aspects that haven't been mentioned during our conference so far that just now occurred to me that you might be interested in.
We have within the U.S. something called "ProfNet." I'm not confident who runs it. But any journalist who has a question that requires an academic as a resource can put the request on the network and it goes to the news offices of all the universities and colleges in the United States. And there is someone there who looks at all these messages, and if they know of someone on their faculty will then send an e-mail back to the reporter. And then it is up to the reporter to decide whether or not they wish to call the professor. But I do a lot of interviews with journalists from all around the country who have never heard of me before, and I've never heard of them. And the reason I get the telephone call from them is because they have put an inquiry into the network, and our news service has responded to them, and then they give me a call. So that is something you might think about within Poland as a resource that you might wish to develop. You cannot do that with your newspaper and a typewriter. A second thing you cannot do with your newspapers and a typewriter is a new kind of investigative reporting that we have not really talked about during this conference. But I have a friend named Brock Meeks in the United States who, in addition to writing as a commercial journalist in print publications, puts out news items on the Internet. Occasionally they result in his being sued for defamation in which case we have to raise a large legal fund to protect him, which we always do because he's so wonderful. But I once heard a presentation by him at a conference of the way in which he did investigative reporting about a presidential candidate we had named Pat Buchanan. And everyone suspected that Pat Buchanan had support from Nazi organizations, individuals, and other right wing individuals, but nobody could prove it because there's no way of doing that research. So what Brock did was to get a hold of a list of Pat Buchanan's supporters, and that list was available. And he then simply put each of those names into search engines on the Internet and came up with the Nazi organizations to which they belonged which then gave him the exclusive story that no other reporter had -- because they were all using typewriters and newspapers. [laughter] And Brock was using the Internet.
Now I'm changing to a third topic. There's a lot of disparagement of going to the Library of Congress, why would you want to go to the Library of Congress if you're reporting for a small town newspaper? Well, I'll tell you why, because you might want to get a report on comparing levels of water pollution. There's a lot of information out there that is of relevance to every small community in Poland even though it is not about the facts out of that community. You may want to do stories about all kinds of things that impact on that community where knowledge from databases would be helpful to you. So there are three things that I think the Internet can do that typewriters and newspapers cannot.
KJ: That's the advantages; any disadvantages from your own point of view?
NJ: The disadvantage is I no longer have the microphone. [laughter]
HM: The question of the advantage; it is a special working place I have because I only make commentary; I only newscast. I am not an investigating reporter. That is just my special situation.
But now something about advantages. The advantages for my wife; she is investigating reporting in the field of mass media, specializing in east Europe and she is using the Internet and databases all of the day. And this is the only opportunity to get very quickly information.
For her Internet technology is only chance to write, this is a chance and she is using this chance. I don't think there are any disadvantages in this. But I point out this does not mean this development is in favor for the work of every journalist; there are exceptions, and I am, I'm sorry to say, an exception.
KJ: Someone said yesterday that he has to spend a lot of time educating the computer about the stuff he writes. In other words classifying; he has to classify files in the way expected by the computer.
Now in the old days, when news agencies were the main thing, many journalists complained that if they were working with Reuters, or AP, or any other news agency, they eventually began to see the world through the eyes of that agency. They began to call things the way the agency called them.
There was a saying among American journalists, I believe, because some news agency and television reporters only used Braniff Airlines, things only happened along Braniff Airlines. I mean, reporters would go where Braniff would fly, but nowhere else. Now is there any danger, as you see it, that you begin to see the world in the way that is structured by the information sources that you use, for example, on the Internet.
NJ: I would say just the opposite; that with present library research you do need to know the category you want to go to. I don't know what system you use for library classification, but we have the Dewey system and the Library of Congress system. You need to know those classification systems to go to the place in the library where the political science books are, or the English literature is, or whatever.
One of the consequences of the Internet as we saw last night with the demonstration and some of the searches, is that you search by key words for phrases; so that rather than being limited to categories, what happens to you is suddenly you find 8,000 sources on something that you're looking for. And there may very well be files coming to you from New Zealand, and from Chile, and from Costa Rica, wherever, that you never would have thought to look for.
And they may be in subject matter areas you wouldn't have thought to look for. It may turn out that somebody in an entirely different profession is looking at the problem that you're looking at, and you wouldn't have thought to look in medical literature, because after all yours is a political science question. Yet here's a doctor who has written about it and it's published in a medical journal. Well, the Internet will find that for you. A librarian -- I mean one who is not as sophisticated as Ruth -- would not be able to find it for you in print, because it simply would not show up in an index.
EF: The computer is still very stupid, it's very clunky, it's still too hard to use, it is not friendly to those of us who are liberal arts majors. It is, however, getting better and getting more intuitive, and I think that the Internet is a great step forward for those of us who are not technical wizards. Because of its "bookmark" system it gives you a thread, to go back to where you've logged in, where you've been. And for people who have short term memory loss, as I do, it changes the color of the places that you've been to so that you can remember.
I think I agree with Nick Johnson that it opens. As a Washington journalist for nearly 20 years I became acutely aware of the danger of being captured by my sources. I think every journalist runs that risk. It is far more the case that a police reporter begins to look and talk like a cop, or a Pentagon reporter begins to think like a military officer. And that the Internet opens up the possibility of speaking to many people, and developing them as sources, whether online or in person who break out of that captivity.
HM: I think that the computer is responsible for the higher speed of information. And this does not mean that the quality of information could be better. This means the correspondent in Bonn has the problem, his newspapers knew already things which happened in Bonn, if he is not always looking at his computer. This means that he often cannot go to a press conference because he loses his contact through his computer. This changes his world. He is looking at the computer and he is looking in the same way as his colleagues. This means he doesn't dare to go out and interview with the politician if he loses the contact. I think because of the speed of the information there is a danger for the quality.
KJ: Mr. Meyn types on a typewriter, which means that he has to mentally think of every word he writes. Now you people download a lot of stuff from the Internet and before you even begin writing you have within your power lots of words, lots of information. How creative is your work afterwards, when all it really takes is putting stuff together and you have a new article?
EF: A very provocative question Karol, and it brings to mind immediately the question of plagiarism. And that is a very serious problem. Because by splitting the screen, as many journalists do, and putting on the left an article that has been written about the subject you're also writing about, you can inadvertently, or perhaps without at all being conscious of it -- it happened to a quite respected Washington journalist not too long ago. She used some of the phrases in her piece that she was seeing on the left-hand side. Its a danger with all technology.
NJ: Are you suggesting there's never been a schoolchild who copied a part of an article out of an encyclopedia?
My point is I don't think that the ethics and the practices are affected by the technology. Someone defined research as "plagiarism on the grand scale." I think the more you can research, the more you can know, the more you can have access to the better.
Before I came I printed out a stack of paper like that [gesturing about a quarter meter high] off the Internet of things about Poland -- your constitution, your history, recent news from English language Polish newspapers that were available, an incredible amount of information -- that was very helpful to me and that I could not otherwise obtain.
So I think if you're creative, and you come up with kind of offbeat ideas -- as I have tried to make a career out of -- I think you continue to do that regardless of who you are reading. Or this very creative typewriting aficionado.
KJ: There's recently been a story about the American academic community trying to create Internet Two, the reason being that One is already being overloaded with a lot of commercial stuff, it's very slow and doesn't really serve the purpose its supposed to serve. Do you see this as a problem? What is going to happen in this regard?
EF: The charter was signed on Thursday for Internet Two, and it is a consortium of 34 universities that have agreed to be initial members and have put money in with the National Science Foundation which is the government body at least in our country.
The danger is information overload, which we have already seen, we've talked about. There's a title of a wonderful new book that I'd recommend called "Data or Smog." Because Internet Two will operate at 100 times the speed of Internet One. Now if you combine that speed with the new chips, we've just seen a breakthrough in the chips now made of copper and silicone instead of aluminum. Copper conducts electricity better, therefore it speeds up the chip. If you combine that with the doubling of the memory capacity, and the recently announced breakthrough of Microsoft in their laboratories, so that the same number of chips can remember twice as much information, we have a huge leap forward, which Adam Powell referred to yesterday, in the information that is available to us. And we haven't quite figured out how to handle the amount of information we have now.
NJ: I'd like to take the contrary view, as I've just explained to you I always do.
I don't think we have a problem with "information overload."
I think if you are looking for a job as a young journalist, and there's a job out there that would pay what you want to earn, much more than you're earning now, would provide more challenges for you, more fun for you, and you don't know that that job exists, you don't have an information overload.
If you are writing a story, and there are some statistics you need for your story and you don't know they exist, and you don't know how to get them, you don't have an information overload.
You may have a desk full of paper, you may have floppy disks full of files, but you don't have an "information overload."
The most important story in a newspaper for any of us to have read may have appeared this morning in the New Delhi Times in India and none of us saw it.
We don't have an information overload.
What we have is a scanning problem, we have a sorting problem, we have a filtering problem. And there are technologies to help us with that.
We want access to more information, and more information, and, yes, at 100 times today's speed.
But we also want the ability to filter through it and evaluate it and sort it, and find precisely what we want. So it's very important that we not confuse an information overload with a scanning overload.
HM: I think that we have an abundance of information, and I think the problem is which informations are important and which informations are not important. This is the function of the journalist to find out. People don't know what is important for them. I think this is a new challenge for journalism, and many information have no importance for people. They spend many hours playing with the computer and they don't get exactly the information they seek. I think this long wave must be shortened in the future.
NJ: Then we are in agreement. I certainly agree we need journalists, as discussed in the paper.
We seem to have an abundance of these papers left, an abundance of information overload. [laughter] In recognition of any problems that Poland may have with regard to disposal of solid wastes, I would urge you to take a copy home for your parents or your friends so we do not have to throw them away and further fill up Poland's landfills. [laughter]
Well, of course, we have a lot of useless information out there, and that's what we need the filters for. And as I do say in the paper every future scenario I see has a role for what we today call journalists, and I think we will continue to have a need for them and other professionals, such as librarians and what we today call media specialists. I think we're going to need more and more of them over time.
KJ: We seem to be talking about technologies in the plural, but it seems there is only one technology and that's the computer and the Internet. Any other new technologies in your life?
EF: CD-ROM we haven't talked about. When we talk about reporters' tools perhaps the most basic and important we have today is the CD-ROM.
It is now possible to buy a CD-ROM that has the telephone number of everybody who lives in the United States. When you're a reporter the first thing you got to do is find a telephone number, and that's now a very simple thing to do.
I think the other technologies that are helpful to us that aren't new, but during my lifetime as a journalist the one technological breakthrough that changed the way we work was the jet engine, because it enabled us to send reporters and camera crews quickly to other countries. I can't believe that won't change very soon.
Yesterday Jack Hoagland referred to the nonlinear edge systems that are now available for television. Although they are driven by the same technologies as computers are they are somewhat different.
And they, it seems to me -- because you can create any effect, anything, including propaganda of the most egregious form -- it means there should be a greater emphasis than ever before on ethics, on honesty, on the enforcement of standards, of principles, not only in journalism schools but in newsrooms.
This can be a force that is for good for the most part, but can be a very evil force in the wrong hands.
NJ: With regard to the CD-ROM an interesting aspect of that is what might be thought of as the tradeoff between the CD and telecommunications costs. As telecommunications costs drop, it makes more sense to get direct access to a mainframe computer with updated information.
I bought the CDs that Ed refers to, and two weeks after I got them they were made available online for free and regularly updated. So you now get that information through something called Switchboard -- or Yahoo has access to phone numbers. You can put in phone numbers and find out where the person is, as I did when I was getting some harassing phone calls.
As the price of telecommunications goes up it makes a lot more sense to have the material on a CD-ROM. For example, in the law school we can get access to all of the United States Supreme Court cases from Westlaw or Nexis over telecommunications lines. But that's kind of silly, because after those opinions are written they are never going to change. And so if you have the old opinions, say from five years ago back to the beginning of the United States Supreme Court, you can put those on a CD-ROM and there's no need to run up the telecommunications charges to get the older opinions.
You understand that point.
With regard to reporters not being able to get away from their computers, bear in mind that if you can imagine it, an electronic engineer can build it for you.
If you want a watch that tells you the time, and speaks in Polish every hour on the hour, you can have that. I don't know that anybody wants that. But if you want that you can have that.
If you are concerned about being away from your computer, you can have a pager or a pocket computer or a cell phone -- because today they all look alike, its hard to tell them apart -- that can automatically call you. It can either send you an e-mail or vibrate or make a tone. It can give you an e-mail message, give you a phone number, give you the latest news headlines, whatever, wherever you are. You can then get back in touch with your computer remotely and find what it was you needed to know.
If you can think through what your needs are, and then go into the marketplace, you will probably find there's already something there that can solve the problem for you. And if there's not, somebody can invent it for you in 18 months.
HM: Some weeks ago I had a new experience with a new technology. This new technology in Germany is digital audio broadcasting. The taxi driver who drove me to the airport was always looking on the screen because he wanted to know if there's big traffic on the way to the airport. And he was always looking on the screen. I was very angry.
He crossed the street and there was a red light. He didn't see the red light, but he always looked on the screen, with new instrument, digital audio broadcasting. When we arrived at the airport he had the first picture on his screen, and this picture said "there's not big traffic." It was an experience with this new technology. But I think it will be better in some months. [laughter]
KJ: That leads me to my next question. So far we've been discussing the use of new technology in work related activities. What about leisure time activities?
NJ: What is leisure time? [laughter]
KJ: And you say there are no disadvantages to the new technology.
I'm always working on my computer wherever I am, and I was in an airline lounge that has office facilities in it, the United Airlines Red Carpet Club. A fellow was sitting at the desk next to mine, working on his notebook computer, and when he got up to leave he smiled and said "You know, it used to be we just worked, now we work all the time."
EF: I'm not sure whether this qualifies as leisure time or not, but there's a newspaper in New Jersey that we work with that has decided that it cannot solve the problem of disappearing young readers, so it's decided to give, give, all of its information resources to a high school for gifted teenagers. It is going to take all of its resources and design a place that teenagers will want to come to read.
The hope, of course, is that this will stimulate them to go on to read the newspaper at some point in their lives.
I visited that high school a couple of weeks ago, and what I saw there were very bright young people, 12, 14 years old. And it rang a bell with me because some of the most creative projects were being demonstrated by people in their early teens. Is that work? I don't think it is. Is it creativity? Yes. Is it a good use of leisure time? Yes, of course.
And another example of that sort of thing is the creation of a community in one of the major cities in the United States. There are about 500 different houses of worship of varied religions. And this is journalists convening an organization in that city, the city of New York, a section of New York, has created a network among the 500 houses of worship so that they can discuss common issues. I think you in your remarks yesterday quoted several experts as saying that journalists have roles other than mere reporters of events. One of their roles you said was as conveners, and they are convening a community.
HM: I think during the introduction of new technology people spend more time because they are curious, because they want to know how that works. One example of Eastern Germany, after the wall broke down people in Eastern Germany looked at television more than people in Western Germany. Now we see a period of normalization. They couldn't see the western television before. They want to know what is new. Now the process of normalization has begun, the differences between Eastern and Western television is not so big as in the years after 1990.
NJ: I might just add that with regard to leisure, seriously, it is often the case that new technology which is supposed to reduce our work burden ends up not reducing it at all, and sometimes increasing it. The appliances in the home -- the dishwasher, the clothes washer -- have not ended up with people having more leisure. They have ended up with people having more jobs outside of the home.
There have been a number of studies that seem to document that productivity has actually declined as a result of introducing computers into the work place. Not on the assembly line so much, but in the office.
About four days ago the Federal Reserve Board in San Francisco came out with yet one more report to this effect. They are unable to document that there has been any improvement in productivity as a result of computers.
So I think that's something to think about also.
Here is my "Exhibit A": a man who is incredibly successful as a journalist, and I would guess in large measure because he has not spent the 20, and sometimes 50, hours a week that I have spent over the last few years dealing with all the frustrations computers have brought into my life. He has been calm, he has been thoughtful [laughter], he has been writing, he has been playing with mice in restaurants.
KJ: They were computer mice.
NJ: Well, I've been playing with computer mice, that's right.
KJ: f you have a dishwasher, or washing machine, that allows you to spend more time outside the home, more time doing other things. It seems to me that computers actually keep you inside much more. They make you spend more time at your desk or wherever you are using the computer. Does this mean that the promise of the "Information Society" is really open only to the unemployed, the sick, the young, and the homebound?
NJ: Are none of us prepared to take that on?
I think it's a very interesting question.
Anything can be abused. There were children when I was growing up who probably spent too much time reading books, and had very little social interaction with their age mates.
Clearly the same thing is possible with computers, and probably more possible with computers, because it is possible to fall asleep while reading, but very seldom does one fall asleep at a computer screen.
In fact, 20 years ago in Madison, Wisconsin, when I was doing a distinguished visiting professorship at the University of Wisconsin, I went to the computer lab and noticed on the wall a sign that said, "The cleaning people absolutely must be able to get into this room. You are required to cooperate with them between the hours of 4:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m." [laughter] And I wondered what other academic building on the University of Wisconsin campus in Madison, Wisconsin, would require students to respond to such an order regarding their behavior between 4:00 and 5:00 a.m.
So that can be a problem.
But the question is, with the volume of e-mail that most of us have who have e-mail -- and you get e-mail from people all around the world that you've met, or whom you haven't met, because one of the things you can do with e-mail is write a stranger you don't know. And usually you get an answer back, sometimes a very helpful answer.
The question is, is this expanding your human contact? Is it making it more likely that I would be invited to come speak in Poland, and I get to meet you here, and then I go back home to my computer screen? Or is it less likely? Is it cutting you off from human contact?
I think a lot of the answer to that turns on the personality you bring to it in the first place. Some people are shy and sit back and don't have much social interaction with or without computers. Other people use computers to increase what we call "networking" with our circle of friends and contacts.
EF: The thing that returns us to our homes is television. Television changed the way that we interacted, and it isolated us from other people. I think the interactive nature of computers puts us in touch with people.
KJ: Vicariously.
EF: Vicariously. But I'd like to say individual contact aside, I saw a study just last week that indicated 8% of Americans now watch television while working at their computers.
HM: I prefer face-to-face conversation. My first wife was proficient in computer technology, and that had consequences. [laughter]
KJ: Do we understand correctly that your second wife also uses the computer a lot?
HM: Recently, a couple of months ago ,she was approached to hold a seminar on the information society and the hope was that she would be the patron or sponsor of the drive for an information society in Poland. She decided to wait a moment and see. But in any case we had a lecture there by someone who is an advisor to the European Commission, and chairman of a high level working group which is writing a report on the societal impact of the information society. And he made the point that when you look into the future you have to ask yourself the question, "What is going to be more important, heavy metal or Nintendo?" In other words, are the steel mills and the coal mines, are they going to be the industry of the future, or is Nintendo and its related products, computer related products, are they going to be the industry of the future? And the answer was that Nintendo was the wave of the future, not atoms.
And he was talking about the need to introduce a "bit tax," because more and more of the gross national product would take the form of digital bits.
KJ: As you know, the "Information Society," the computer related media, is creating what some people call the copyright industry, the use of video material over and over again and as I said more and more of the natural product would be created in this process.
Now what consequences do you think this will have for society in general? How will this affect the way we work and we play?
EF: Well, that's a real easy question, thank you, Karol. [laughter]
My father worked in a shipyard; my mother was a secretary. I never thought there was anything particularly ennobling about very hard work. I'm sure my ancestors and all of yours spent their lives looking at the back end of a horse, or perhaps a mule.
We now have gone to a society where a majority of people in the country I live in work with information technologies, and I hope that that will free them from the mind deadening labor that so many peoples of the world still must contend with.
In the '50s and '60s IBM, the pioneer company in the computer field, had a slogan that has stayed with me and I think I'd like to make it my benediction in answer to this question. Their slogan was, "Machines should work, people should think." I agree with that.
What the long term consequences of everyone doing that sort of thing is, I don't know. The fact is, of course, that now my shirt was made in Costa Rica, my jacket was made in Belarus, and my shoes were made in Sri Lanka, all by people who still have mind-deadening jobs. And when they are liberated from those kinds jobs I have no idea what creativity will flourish in Costa Rica, Belarus and Sri Lanka. But I would hope that it would be up lifting and in the spirit of community and citizenship.
NJ: When you mentioned heavy metal I assumed you were talking about music, which reminds me of a study.
I gather you are not a heavy metal music fan, nor am I. But the anecdote will illustrate what I think should be shared with any of you who might be inclined to listen to heavy metal.
A young science student -- true story -- just won an award for a study done with three groups of mice, which somehow his parents permitted him to have in the basement. And he ran them through a maze to see how long it would take for them to get to the food. And all the groups began by taking 10 minutes. He took one group and played for them for a month classical music and then would run them through the maze every day. And another group received no music. A third group received heavy metal music.
At the end of the month the mice who had received no music had cut their time from 10 minutes to seven minutes to get to the food. The mice who had been listening to the classical music cut their time from 10 minutes to two minutes. And the mice who had been listening to heavy metal increased their time from 10 minutes to a half hour. [laughter]
This I cite as but a part of my evidence for the importance of the continued promotion of public broadcasting in Europe. [laughter]
Now Ed says his ancestors were looking at the back end of a horse, but from some of the stories you told me about your work in broadcasting Ed, I gathered the fact is that this went on for you for some years as well.
OK, sorry about that.
Information has to be about something. And I think there are still going to be ships, and there are still going to be railroad cars, and there are still going to be machine tools.
KJ: Where are they going to be produced?
NJ: They are going to be produced anywhere you can find robots to do it at a reasonable rate.
So, yes, I think it is true that a larger and larger proportion of our gross domestic product in all of our countries is information-based. It is the creation, the gathering, the editing, the sorting, the distribution of "information" -- by which I include everything from journalism to feature films to whatever.
But certainly there still are some people who are engaged in agriculture, even though they are taking care of ten or a hundred times as much land as my grandparents did. There are still people working in factories, even though they are only 5% of the population, compared with the majority who were long ago.
HM: I think there's no alternative to the information society. We already have this information society. I think we gain new working places in the development of this information society. But on the other side we lose working places.
Look into a bank. If you enter a bank nowadays there are only 20 people who work in this bank. In former times there were 50 or 60 people. That is a loss of working places, and for me a loss of personal contact, because I look on a screen and have not the opportunity to talk in this bank.
I think there is no alternative for society to aim to be modern.
KJ: The question I asked about where the industrial work would continue was a serious one. Is there not a trend for highly developed societies to export their smokestack industry, and concentrate on the clean industries? Robots are all right, but if you can get live labor cheaper then why do you need robots?
NJ: Well, I think the story about where the clothes in Ed's closet have come from makes the point, because the end result of capitalism is you drive down labor price as far as you can.
Michael Jordan, the basketball player, makes more every year than all the workers combined who make the shoes for whom he is the spokesperson. And when the labor rates in Indonesia got too high for Nike they moved to Viet Nam where the minimum wage was $2.00 a day. But not wishing to pay $2.00 a day they paid less. The workers protested, but you can bet they probably got their heads beaten before they got unionized.
So that's the way capitalism works. And I would simply tie it into our conference by noting that what makes that possible is the same global telecommunications system that we use for transmitting our television programs and our e-mail and our news wires.
It enables the Ford Motor Car Company, for example, to have designers working on a new car design who are working 24 hours a day somewhere around the world in all time zones, linked together by a computer network -- so that project never stops. And parts from everywhere, assembly in other places, distribution from other places.
The Sunday evening I arrived in Warsaw I went looking for a Polish restaurant to eat in. I found McDonalds, I found Burger King, I found Dunkin' Doughnuts. That's made possible in part, the use of my Visa card here, through this global telecommunications network.
So it has an impact far beyond journalism as you are well aware.
KJ: I think we have exhausted all the remaining subjects.
NJ: We very nearly have.
KJ: And I want to thank my colleagues for trying very valiantly to do that, for listening to my questions, some of which were easy and some of which were very easy. [laughter] I thank you very much for your attention.
JD: Thank you Karol for a valiant job.
I think if we've learned anything over the past couple of days we've learned that the subject we wanted to talk about, cyberspace, is something that already exists. And if we can describe the place where it is, that place is a place of experimentation and searching.
And that the alternatives which confront us are very challenging and exciting, and at times very frightening as well.
I think that one of the most hopeful and reassuring things that has come out of the conference for me over these past few days is a sort of underscoring of the fact that we as journalists, as professionals, as people, are the ones who are really responsible for what this place called cyberspace is going to be. And we'll go out of this room today knowing that the possible efforts to use the emergence of the new technology as an excuse for bringing back old methods of repression, or a loss of our freedom, is something that we are not going to tolerate anywhere in the world.
Thank you for being with us.
Peter C. Seel: I would like to thank all the people who contributed to this conference. I do believe that we did not have an information overload because we had a very well-sorted information spectrum here, and we'd like to express gratitude to all of those who contributed. I would like to thank again the organizations and persons who put all of this together. Thank you all very much for coming.
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